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help with recording bass wiring

chuckocaster

help with recording bass wiring
« on: July 12, 2005, 08:41:42 AM »
hello all, i'm new to these parts and figured you guys might be able to help me out.

i aquired a gibson recording bass pickup awhile back and am now really itching to use it. it has eight wires and i've read the schematic, it just doesn't make sense to me. what i want to do is put it in a custom bass i'm building and just use that pickup alone. i just need to know what wires go where to make it work at full capacity. i don't want to do series parralel or coil split. i just want it in series.

thanks all for taking the time to look.


                  chuck

help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2005, 02:05:46 PM »
The recording PU is a stacked humbucker.  It is also a low impedance pickup... so you would need either a buffer preamp or a transformer, as on the original bass.

I haven't looked at the schematic in years, but it was quite complicated from what I remember. What I think you have is two tapped coils, so each one has 4 wires.

Also I believe you have the pickups from a LP Triumph bass, not a Recording... the Recording didn't have the tapped pickups... at least that's what I see from the schematic for the LP Recording.

If you have access to a digital ohm meter you can try taking some readings to find the beginning and end of each coil.  If you can find the start and end wires you should be able to wire it up in series and just ignore the tap wires.

I have the schematic in a binder somewhere.  I'll look it up and see if I can figure this out for you.

I've been wanting a LP Recording bass myself!

help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2005, 03:33:01 PM »
OK, I found a schematic for the Triumph bass online.

It's here:

http://www.guitar-parts.com/images/gibson5.jpg

So as you can see, you want to use the red and orange wires.  You can tape up the other two (blue and green) as those are the coil taps.

So it looks like you attached the two red wires together, and use one orange for hot and one for ground.  If that either produces a really thin sound, or if the pickup hums, try attaching a red to an orange and taking it from there.

Keep in mind that the pickup is low impedance, so it wont have much output without either a buffer preamp, or a transformer.  You can probably use something like a Bartolini preamp with it, or even a transformer that would be used for a microphone (one of those XLR to phone jack things).

chuckocaster

help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 07:41:25 AM »
thanks alot dave! that sure did help. i'll probably get to this in about a week or so. i really really appreciate this. now all i need to do is finish up the bass and get a pre amp. my luthier told me just to use an active bass pre, or one off of an acoustic.

help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 06:18:37 PM »
Cool.  Yeah an active bass pre is the same thing, only with tone controls.

let me know how it works out!

David

cbs

Gibson LP Bass Schematic?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2005, 04:17:38 PM »
Is the inductor/transformer a low to high (step up) or a high to low (step down)?
Is it available?

Re: Gibson LP Bass Schematic?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2005, 06:27:58 PM »
Quote from: cbs
Is the inductor/transformer a low to high (step up) or a high to low (step down)?
Is it available?


It would be low to high, since it is a low impedance pickup going to a high impedance amp input. Actually it doesn't matter because you would just reverse the transformer.  But you want to run the pickup in the low end.  A far better way to do it is with an active preamp of some kind.  But any low to high impedance mic transformer should do the trick.

Also the Epiphone Jack Cassidy bass (which is more or less a revamped Les Paul Signature bass) uses a transformer, that is if it's the same pickup as the Les Paul Sig bass.

RadioShack sells small audio transformers that might do the trick too.

help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2007, 08:39:24 PM »
I know this is an old thread, but I need help with a similar problem.  

I have a 1969-71 Les Paul Bass, the one with low impedance pickups and an inline transformer.  

I find the transformer to be a real pain and would like to replace it .  Ideally, I would like the replacement to be some kind of inline box with two 1/4 inch connections and a switch that would allow me to bypass the transformer all together.

I was thinking about getting a Shure A95U inline transformer, taking it apart and then attempting to wire the actual transformer to a couple of 1/4 inch connections (unfortunately, I don't know too much about electronics).

After reading these posts, I am thinking that buying a preamp would be an easier (but more expensive) way to go.  I have looked around on the web a found a few preamp, including the following:

 - Hartke Bass Attack Bass Pre-Amp/Direct Box
 - Aguliar DB924 Outboard Active Bass Preamp
 - Sadowsky Preamp
 - Seymour Duncan SFX01 Pickup Booster Boost Pedal

I have no idea which, if any, would be the best fit.  Any suggestion?  Thanks....grant

jules

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LP recording
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2007, 10:00:44 PM »
so you want to be able to switch between low and high impedance? Am I understanding you? Effectively just like the newer version (Triumph)

Sorry, I can't help with the wiring, but Jake (Granny Gremlin) is our electronics wizard here, and fully versed in the ways of LI Les Pauls - I suspect he'll be able to help

help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 09:22:35 PM »
OMG so much misinformation in this thread I don't know where to start....

This pup will NOT work well with a standard bass preamp (those take Hi Z NOT Low Z input) unless you run it through a transformer first (even then I don't recomend it because the output is still low compared to other, normal, pups).

The Gibson Z transformer (came with the original Les Paul Bass, the later Triumph had this built in to the circuit) is no longer available .  Shure makes an identical part (model #: A95U).  It'll cost ya around $40-60.  I can get you a generic brand copy for under $10.  You can also plug these babies directly into a mixer/mic preamp without requireing a DI box.  If you use a mic pre you can take that output into your amp (the pre section should take it well enough, but if you're scared, use the "power amp in" or effects return jack as the input).  That being said you don't really need to convert the Z, just turn the pre gain up more (this is not a problem with higher powered amps, but if you have a lower wattage amp, you might not be able to go as loud as you'd like).  There are also amps with Lo Z inputs - such as the one Gibson made for the Recording line as well as most of the vintage Vocal/PA tube amps from the 60s/70s (I use a Bogen Challenger, and a Garnet Session Man Vocal for more power...other makers included Traynor, Fender, Peavey, Sound City, Hiwatt and Orange)

The eight wires on the pup are there because this pup is actually 3 pickups in one (think of an old tube amp output transformer with multiple taps to allow for differant speaker loads - same thing here). The wires are all colour coded to match.  All the wires at one end of the pup are from the same coil (there's4 wires at each end).

Orange is the ground/common for each coil.

Blue is 'normal'

Green is less coil windings (more treble, less bass, clankier, weaker signal)

Red is more windings (more bass, less treble stronger signal)

I really enjoy the variation, so I recomend using a regular tele pup seletor switch so you can take your pick.

Otherwise, pick the sound you like best, take both wires of that color and solder them together for normal series opperation for that winding tap. The take one orange wire as ground and the other as hot (doesn't matter which is which as you say this will be a single pup bass).

If you think this is all too much I'll gladly take that pup off your hands for a fair price.

jules

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help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2007, 03:21:24 AM »
Quote from: Granny Gremlin

The eight wires on the pup are there because this pup is actually 3 pickups in one


Cheers Jake, interesting

so does the 3-way tone switch on the Les Paul bass and Triump actually relate to different combination of coils from within the pickup?

What is different about the three coils? Any idea what i'd see if I deceided to hack one apart?

doom

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help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2007, 09:25:06 AM »
Jules, the tone switch is not dialing in different combinations, just one tap at a time, although it is a stacked pickup with two (probably) identical coils with taps (just like an output transformer in an amp for different speaker loads) making it a humbucker like the P100 guitar pup. That's why you have eight leads coming out. One lead is for the ground and then three hot taps from one coil, one lead is hot along with three taps from the second coil. The switch is used to connect the very same tap from each coil together making them run in series. Basically what you'd probably find inside is one blade magnet with two coils on top of each other. Theoreticly speaking there's a possibility to use only one coil of each tap though the output would be even lower and probably not very much low end producing. As if there arent enough switches already on that control plate.....

help with recording bass wiring
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2007, 03:23:15 PM »
Quote from: jules
What is different about the three coils? Any idea what i'd see if I deceided to hack one apart?

They're all the same coil, just more or less of it.  Look at one of the coils in the Triumph diagram (Triumph schematic from GibsonBass.com).  See how the blue, green and red wires are 'tapped' into the coil at different lengths.  Simplified, it would look like this (where "---" is the coil straightened out, like Egon's slinky):

|-----------------------------------|------------------|----------------|
Orange...........................Green..............Blue.................Red

Blue was designed to be normal response (most akin to normal HiZ pups in sound).  From there it becomes obvious that Green is underwound (sounds like the pups on a cheap Japanese EB3 copy... but better... maybe an SB300 is a better comparison  :wink:  ) and Red is overwound (hot, comparitavely speaking, like Gibson dirty fingers geetar pups compared to a normal humbucker - more bassy with some treble roll off... but not that much rolloff because this is LoZ after all).

Quote from: Doom
Jules, the tone switch is not dialing in different combinations, just one tap at a time, although it is a stacked pickup with two (probably) identical coils with taps (just like an output transformer in an amp for different speaker loads) making it a humbucker like the P100 guitar pup. That's why you have eight leads coming out. One lead is for the ground and then three hot taps from one coil, one lead is hot along with three taps from the second coil. The switch is used to connect the very same tap from each coil together making them run in series. Basically what you'd probably find inside is one blade magnet with two coils on top of each other. Theoreticly speaking there's a possibility to use only one coil of each tap though the output would be even lower and probably not very much low end producing. As if there arent enough switches already on that control plate.....


Is there an echo in here?  :P ... and no, I could use a few more switches on there, definately.

I've checked - the LoZ LP pups do indeed have blade a blade pole piece (which means that they could be used on a bass with more/less than 4 strings or with differant string spacing.... or even a guitar, if you felt like it - the LoZ LP guitar pup does not have the same tapping to it, just the 'normal' setting - they're also much smaller, so that's how you can tell them apart: smaller with 2 wires not 8 ).

The 2 stacked coils in the pup are identical (they have to be in order to work as a humbucker) - just reverse wound with reversed polarity - mirror images of each other.

As Doom said, the tone switch just connects the like coils for both pups (blue to blue, red to red etc).  It is a double blade switch (like 2 tele switches connected to the same lever) and is no longer available (Rob and I have both scoured the net looking - if anyone finds one, new or the original part, please, for heavan's sake, let me know).  For a single-pup bass, a tele switch works just fine.

It is not recomended to connect 2 differant coil taps (e.g. green to red) - this will affect the humbucking performance of the pup, and since unbalanced LoZ signals are very suseptable to hum/noise I strongly advise against it.  Same goes for coil tapping/single coil mode.  If one really wants the single coil sound out of these you can add a series/parallel swicth (parallel coils sound very similar to a single coil of the same type, but with humbucking behaviour intact) OR enable the coil tap only when both pups are on (using the top coil of one pup, and the bottom of the other, so that one pup bucks the other) just like on a Sonex Custom/Standard guitar.

jules

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Triumph tone switch
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2007, 02:28:19 AM »
this has become a very informative and interesting thread.

Thats scary circuit diagram suddenly makes sense!

So is this a standard guitar technique used by many manufacturers to create different tone variations?

Looks like the recording guitar doesn't work this way. Am I correct?

Re: Triumph tone switch
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2007, 10:38:24 PM »
Quote from: jules
So is this a standard guitar technique used by many manufacturers to create different tone variations?

Nope, only the Gibson LoZ BASS pup has this as far as I know (I would love to be corrected if this is not true).

The concept was borrowed from tube amp output sections.

Quote from: jules
Looks like the recording guitar doesn't work this way. Am I correct?


Correct (2 wires vs 8 ).  The Lo Z guitars have something more akin to the lucille-style varitone IIRC.  They probably would've taken this route with the bass model as well if it weren't for the fact that the caps required (as available at the time) would be HUGE... and inductors would interfere with the electronics (remember: LoZ signals are mush more sensitive than HiZ to interferance.... even on the, pre 71, EBs they sheilded the choke coil). ... personally I'm glad that it worked out this way - it is a unique, interesting and useful design.

 

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