Vintage Guitar and Bass forum

Jack Bruce EB3 tone

Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« on: March 19, 2007, 01:00:19 PM »
I want to nail the bass tone Jack has in this clip. Other than the EB3, what else is making this, what amps and effects did Jack use, and is he using them here. Can anyone tell

great playing too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TbhG0U7Ipo

Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2007, 04:58:20 PM »
Hi SWLABR, this is a topic of much debate. Jack is supposed to have used an EB-3 straight (with no effects) in to 100 Watt Marshall Heads (could have been guitar or bass amps) and 4X12 cabs. He is also supposed to have had a diode fitted to the circuit of his EB-3 to get the distortion but some people dispute this.

I can get a very similar tone to Jacks using my EB-3 through my Marshall JCM 800 bass rig with no effects but I prefer to have a less distorted sound than Jack used live.

G

www.motherlodeonline.co.uk
www.myspace.com/motherlodeonline

Dave W

  • ****
  • 433
    • View Profile
Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2007, 11:49:32 PM »
You need a simple little rig like this one behind Jack.  :D


jules

  • *****
  • 3068
    • View Profile
seriously good footage
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 02:28:54 AM »
seriously good footage - not sure if i've seen it before (I have several Cream videos, but my video player is not connected and I haven't watched them in years)

Can anyone confirm that this clip is on DVD anywhere - would certainly like a copy.

As for his tone - yeah Daves right - might be hard to reproduce at non-gig volumes. I've tried some of these amp modellers, but I have to say i'm unimpressed so far.

Anyone else here use amp modelling devices? which one? and what do you think?

Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 05:45:08 AM »
Wow, great footage! Never seen that before! I like the way they take it out in the middle, but not as far as in the Wheels of Fire version. I also like the fact that the camera spends so much time on Jack Bruce - a lot of the time it'd be 90% EC. Was surprised to see JB doing some almost Stanley Clarke/Les Claypool strums with his right hand!

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to get that sound, though I would love to be able to myself. It looked at one point like there was a toggle switch instead of the varitone dial?

Toggle
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 12:58:58 PM »
Yes, I thought he had a toggle. Was it standard though?

This footage reminds me of what bands today sorely miss and that is taking songs in new directions from the original recordings. The Who was another band who did this. When I go to a show I don't want to see the music performed note for note like the CD. The music should be taken up a level.

Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 01:57:17 PM »
Quote
Redbird wrote: Yes, I though he had a toggle. Was it standard though?

Didn't Jack have two EB-3 basses, an early 60's one with the toggle switch seen in that clip and a mid 60's one with the rotary switch which he is more commonly seen using?

I heard somewhere the toggle switch was standard on some early EB-3 basses....

G

eb2

  • ****
  • 456
    • View Profile
Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2007, 08:14:37 AM »
He had several EB3s, and they were all a bit different.  That one has the toggle.  He had an earlier one with the tin paint on the pup and he had a later one with the evil bridge.  That clip, if I recall, is a gig in NY.  It has been on Youtube and pulled off a few times.  The bass he is playing was plugged into the second channel input on the old Marshall tube head (ok it was new then) so that has a major difference in the tone.  The two inputs were wired different so that one had a "livelier" presence.  But the greater quality of his sound was distortion, and sadly a distortion that takes everything into account.  You really can't do it with a practice amp.

His seemed to mix in the lead pup with the mud, so his signal was hot and nasal.  Running that into a tube 100w Marshall second input will overload the warmer input of the preamp, distorting it a bit.  Keeping up with EC and Ginger meant turning the thing up, distorting the amp.  That distorted amplified signal was run out through two 4x12 cabs that had speakers that were rated at around 30w and not designed for bass.  The speakers distorted under the strain.  He was getting harmonic distortion at every stage, which is actually desirable in a guitar situation and not so much in bass.  On top of all that he played the thing in such a way that he sounds like he does still, even when his amps can handle anything.  So it is his way of playing and setting the amp too.  But back then he was a unique recipe for his signature fart tone.
boom

jules

  • *****
  • 3068
    • View Profile
cream
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2007, 02:53:13 PM »


this is from the same day? Doing Sunshine Of Love Love

eb2

  • ****
  • 456
    • View Profile
Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2007, 02:59:32 PM »
Looks like the same gig.  I would hate to think he would dress up like that more than once.

I enjoyed the Cream reunion gig and all, but of all the 60s bands that were happening beyond the Hermans Hermits level I don't think any band got put on TV,filmed, and recorded more than these guys.  Hats off to Robert Stigwood.
boom

Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 02:41:54 PM »
I wrote a paper on JB, and researched his basses, obviously...

Suring cream, the "fart" sound, as it is usually called, was due to the overdriven sound of the marshall stacks.  They were really up in the last volume, and so the distortion gave Jack's nice sound..

Later on, after he left cream, he had Dan Armstrong fit a diode to the electronics, so that the "fart" sound would come up in lower volumes...  you can hear it good in the West Bruce & Laing recordings...

Now, on the clip:

This version of spoonful is one of three videos recorded by a french director at the Revolution Club in 1967.  The three videos are Sunshine Of Your Love, Tales Of BRave Ulysses and Spoonful.  They were featured in the VHS "Fresh Live Cream", which is extremely hard to find.  I didn't know someone had already converted spoonful.  I have the video, and it's great.  A nice documentary made in the 90's...

That's about it, folks
Don\'t pretend that you know me, cos i don\'t even know myself.....

Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 01:27:14 AM »
Maybe you guys have seen or read this already ....seems
similar to whats already been said.
I had this bookmarked on my old comp but managed to find it again .

http://www.bassplayer.com/story.asp?storycode=11837

towards the bottom in "the cream crop box"

“Technology has caught up with and surpassed the music. In the original Cream we had Marshall stacks with only one or two speakers working; that’s what gave me my trademark ‘farty,’ distorted tone. On 90 percent of the gigs there was no proper PA or any monitoring, so the sound we got was the sound onstage. In order to generate the kind of excitement we wanted, we had to play really loud and create that sound with our gear. Nowadays sound technology is spectacular, and we aren’t loud at all onstage."

I've managed to get pretty close/or right on to bruce's "farty"  tone with my eb-3 by cranking the gain on my orange head (somewhere past 12 o clock / maybe 3 o clock) . Even works at lower volumes. At home played through a marshall 4x12 . Gigs hartke 4x10 (temporarily) .

-brian
- Brian

jules

  • *****
  • 3068
    • View Profile
Tales of brave ulysses
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2007, 03:03:03 PM »
Tales of Brave Ulysees is up now too. justr hope these don't get pulled like all the best stuff on youtube seems to!



Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2007, 02:42:33 PM »
Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum.
As far as Jack Bruces' tone being the result of overdriven Marshalls. Check out Live Cream II. There is a spot between songs where he plays all 4 strings in rapid succession like many of us do to maybe check tuning or something. the sound is clean as a bell, sounds like pos. #3 on the bass to me, then suddenly there is a lot of distortion in his bass, I am positive he is stepping on some kind of distortion device or fuzz box as they were known then. I used to own a Marshall Major which are not all that different from 100 watt Marshalls and I could not get that much distortion out of it if I tried. I think the major part of his sound was this distortion device he had along with maybe some overdriving of his Marshalls when he was playing hard, but I think if you check out that CD (LP) closely you will see what I mean and realize it couldn't be the amps. This was a revelation to me as I always thought it was his amps being overdriven also.
As far as the diode being in it, I have read a story (don't know if it is true) where someone supposedly brought his original EB-3 to him during the early 80's at a gig in New York and he confirmed it was his by removing the back plate and seeing the diode in it. But a diode would only allow half the AC signal through probably creating a buzzing sound rather than full sounding distortion, it is possible but doubtful.

Jack Bruce EB3 tone
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 05:37:26 PM »
Jacks sound is easily attainable through old plexi or early 70s metal face Marshalls.Actually both his sound (on the Normal channel) and Erics sound(normal or bright channels) is right there.I use 73 super lead or a 74 super bass..put the bass(fender or gibson) thru normal 1 or 2(2 for a tad less gain) crank it up to 6 or 7 and there you be.As far as clean to dirty,these amps are so dynamic and touch sensitive..that with the guitar volume down to 6 its pretty clean, roll it up to 10 and its Jack Bruce(or Mel Schacter with a jazz or P bass) with all tones and harmonic warmth in between.I love to set a P bass at about 7(on the guitar),,the top 3 strings are tube like warm but the low E will kill insects at 50 yards..if you want to accent on a 4 or 5 chord it sounds like a freakin explosion on stage :lol: Incidently if you dont have the money to go the vintage route,the reissues will do a great job of nailing the tone also,Make sure your speakers can handle the onslought..Part of the "old school jack Bruce type mojo" is driving stacks of celestian 12s to the "begging for mercy" point...

 

Recent posts on vintage guitar and bass

1970 Rosetti Epiphone guitar catalogScan of 1970 Epiphone guitar catalogue produced by Rosetti for the UK market. Undated but most likely from mid-late 1970, this was the first UK catalogue to show the new range of Japanese (Matsumoku) Epiphone guitars. Interestingly, these pages show the Epiphone solid bodies with a single-sided Fender-style headstock layout - a feature quickly replaced with a typical two-sided Epiphone headstock almost immediately. Epiphone electric guitars: 9520, 9525; bass guitars: 9521, 9526; acoustic guitars: 6730, 6830, 6834
1971 A World of Guitars by Rosetti catalogueScan of 1971 Rosetti catalogue (UK) featuring guitars from from numerous manufacturers worldwide: guitars by Epiphone, Hagstrom, Levin, Hoyer, Egmond, Eros, Moridaira, Kiso-Suzuki, Schaller, and Tatra.
1971 Selmer guitar catalogueScan of 1971 Selmer guitar catalogue showing the range of electric and acoustic guitars distributed by the company: guitars by Gibson, Yamaha, Selmer, Hofner and Suzuki. 1960s Selmer had always placed Hofner at the front end of their catalogues, no doubt these were the better sellers - but into the 1970s Hofner were slipping somewhat and only appear at the tail end of this publication, pride of place going to Gibson, and to a lesser extent Yamaha. In fact this is the last Selmer catalogue to include the many Hofner hollow bodies (Committee, President, Senator etc) that had defined the companies output for so many years - to be replaced in the 1972 catalogue by generic solid body 'copies' of Gibson and Fender models. A number of new Gibson models are included for the first time: the SG-100 and SG-200 six string guitars and the SB-300 and SB-400 basses.
1968 Selmer guitar catalogueScan of 1968/1969 Selmer guitar catalogue (printed July 1968), showing the entire range of electric and acoustic guitars distributed by the company: guitars by Hofner, Gibson, Selmer and Giannini. Selmer were the exclusive United Kingdom distributors of Hofner and Gibson at the time, and this catalogue contains a total of 18 electric guitars, 7 bass guitars, 37 acoustics, and 2 Hawaiian guitars - all produced outside the UK and imported by Selmer, with UK prices included in guineas. This catalogue saw the (re-)introduction of the late sixties Gibson Les Paul Custom and Les Paul Standard (see page 69) and the short-lived Hofner Club 70. Other electric models include: HOFNER ELECTRICS: Committee, Verithin 66, Ambassador, President, Senator, Galaxie, HOFNER BASSES: Violin bass, Verithin bass, Senator bass, Professional bass GIBSON ELECTRICS: Barney Kessel, ES-330TD, ES-335TD, ES-345TD, ES-175D, ES-125CD, SG Standard, SG Junior, SG Special GIBSON BASSES: EB-0, EB-2, EB-3 - plus a LOT of acoustics branded Gibson, Hofner, Selmer and Giannini
1961 Hofner Colorama IHofner Colorama was the name UK distributor Selmer gave to a series of solid and semi-solid guitars built by Hofner for distribution in the UK. The construction and specifications of the guitars varied over the period of production, but by 1961 it was a totally solid, double cutaway instrument, with a set neck, translucent cherry finish, six-in-a-row headstock, and Hofner Diamond logo pickups. Available as a single or dual pickup guitar, this sngle pickup version would have been sold in mainland Europe as the Hofner 161.
1971 Commodore N25 (Matsumoku)Commodore was a brand applied to a series of guitars produced in Japan at the well-respected Matsumoku plant from the late 1960s to the mid 1970s - and sold primarily (perhaps exclusively?) in the United Kingdom. The models bearing the Commodore name were all guitars available from different distributors with different branding. Although there may have been some minor changes in appointments (specifically headstock branding) most had the same basic bodies, hardware and construction. Equivalent models to the Commodore N25 (and this is by no means an exhaustive list) include the Aria 5102T, Conrad 5102T(?), Electra 2221, Lyle 5102T, Ventura V-1001, Univox Coily - and most famously the Epiphone 5102T / Epiphone EA-250.
1960 Hofner Colorama IIThe Hofner Colorama was the name given by Selmer to a series of solid (and semi-solid) body Hofner guitars distributed in the United Kingdom between 1958 and 1965. The Colorama name actually applied to some quite different guitars over the period, but in 1960 it was a very light, semi-solid, set necked guitar with one (Colorama I) or two (Colorama II, as seen here) Toaster pickups. Although an entry-level guitar, it was very well-built, and a fine playing guitar; certainly a step up (at least in terms of craftsmanship) from many of the Colorama guitars that would follow, and a good deal of the guitars available in Britain circa 1960.
1971 Epiphone 1820 (ET-280) bassBy the end of the 1960s, a decision had been made to move Epiphone guitar production from the USA (at the Kalamazoo plant where Gibson guitars were made), to Matsumoto in Japan, creating a line of guitars and basses significantly less expensive than the USA-built models (actually less than half the price). The Matsumoku factory had been producing guitars for export for some time, but the 1820 bass (alongside a number of guitar models and the 5120 electric acoustic bass) were the first Epiphone models to be made there. These new Epiphones were based on existing Matsumoku guitars, sharing body shapes, and hardware, but the Epiphone line was somewhat upgraded, with inlaid logos and a 2x2 peghead configuration. Over the course of the 70s, the Japanese output improved dramatically, and in many ways these early 70s models are a low point for the brand. Having said this, there are a lot worse guitars out there, and as well as being historically important, the 1820 bass can certainly provide the goods when required.
1981 Gibson MarauderProduction of Bill Lawrence's Gibson Marauder began in 1974, with production peaking in 1978. But by 1980 the model was officially discontinued, though very small numbers slipped out as late as spring 1981. Over 7000 examples shipped between 1974 and 1979, and although no totals are available for 1980 and 1981, it is unlikely production reached three figures in either of these years. These final Marauders were all assembled at the Gibson Nashville plant, and had some nice features not available through the later years of production, such as a rosewood fretboard, and in this case, an opaque 'Devil Red' finish. It's a great looking and fine playing guitar!