Vintage Guitar and Bass forum

eb3 string question - tension too low, truss rod too tight

eb3 string question - tension too low, truss rod too tight
« on: November 15, 2009, 05:52:17 AM »
I've had these d'addario chromes (45-100 I think) for a couple years now.  After not playing my eb3 for 6 months I've realized that I don't really like the tension or feel of them.   They seem too squishy and unbalanced and I feel like they don't resonate the instrument to its potential.  
I've read that larger string gauges balance out the tension of the short scale but my truss is about as tight as it can get.  I would prefer the action tight and low but I dont want to ruin this old 69' mahogany neck by putting too much tension on.
I remember hearing that ti jazz flats were a "magical" combination with the eb3, despite their low tension people were saying they could get really low action and a decent open e.  According to juststrings, their tension is higher in the e but lower in the a,d, and g strings than the Chromes, that seems like it might feel more balanced with less twanginess on the g and d.  Is this true?  What experiences do you guys have with these?  If the truss rod were not an issue, I'd also be interested in the Labella flats but I wouldn't know what guage to go with there.
Any advice I could get would be great,
thanks/

jules

  • *****
  • 3068
    • View Profile
string tension
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 09:34:52 PM »
That's interesting. I'm surprised that the E string on short scale Chromes is lower tension than the TIs.
 
I'm not sure I have tried short scale D'addario chromes. I have compared longscale versions though. Might just have to try the short scales.
 
I play fingerstyle. When I play near the bridge the Chromes are a bit stiff, and the TIs are just right. At the neck, the Chromes are ok, but the TIs a bit flappy.
 
I like the Labella Deep Talkin' strings too, and have them on most of my short scale EBs and Newports (the 104s)

Dave W

  • ****
  • 433
    • View Profile
eb3 string question - tension too low, truss rod too tight
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 01:15:39 AM »
There must be a reason nobody but D'addario and Thomastik publish string tensions, and I suspect it's because the tension in pounds doesn't necessarily tell you how stiff or loose the strings feel.

The TIs are way looser feeling than the Chromes. If you think the Chromes are squishy, you'll hate the TIs for that even if you like their sound better.

If you want to get technical, the TI tension chart is taken on a 32" scale length, while the Chromes are measured ona 30" scale. So if you want to compare apples to apples, multiply the TI tension figures by .8789 (which is 30/32 squared) and you'll get their tensions on a 30" scale, which would be 113 lbs. total vs. 140 lbs. total for the Chromes.

I don't like the sound of either string, the Chromes are too twangy for me and IMHO the TIs have too little bottom and top. I prefer rounds but when it comes to flats I'll take LaBellas any day.

In the 6 months you weren't playing your EB-3, were you playing other short scale basses? If you were only playing long scales, I can see how you might think the Chromes feel squishy.

eb3 string question - tension too low, truss rod too tight
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 03:45:34 AM »
ahh, good point about the 30" vs 32" scale length and an impressive use of math.
Do you think those 104 LaBella flats would do any damage to my neck since the truss rod is already fully tightened?  Has anyone used Deep Talkin Flats and Chromes for short scale?  I'm wondering how drastic the difference in tension would be.
- and you're right, I have been playing a long scale bass, perhaps I should give myself some more time to adapt.

Dave W

  • ****
  • 433
    • View Profile
eb3 string question - tension too low, truss rod too tight
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2009, 02:02:36 AM »
Shortly after I got my Musicman SUB Sterling a friend sent me a set of 45-100 Chromes. I didn't like 'em so I replaced with the 43-104 LaBellas. Now every neck is different but I had to loosen the truss rod slightly (I recall 1/6 turn) after putting on the LaBellas.

Size for size LaBellas are relatively stiff feeling but they have small cores which put a little less tension on the neck compared to most other strings in each size range.

Another option to consider is the GHS Precision Flatwounds, I used to use them on my former EB-0L and liked the way they sounded. The short scale set only comes in 45-95. Light but not floppy.

mrbass

  • ***
  • 124
    • View Profile
Gibson bass necks
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2009, 12:38:14 PM »
The Labella strings are really good. I don't think they can damage your neck, but maybe you should take it to be set up, and let them put the strings on. Is your neck problem due to a warp or something and is your bridge as low as it can go? I'd get the bass looked at if you are worried
 
Ricky

update...
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2010, 10:10:20 AM »
Update, I've had the Labella's on for just over a month (deep talkin flats, 104).
They do seem to put less strain on the neck compared to the Chromes, I loosened the truss rod (by a about 1/8th) and now there's almost no relief on the neck.  
I was able to get the action crazy low at first but the tension was even more floppy than the Chromes with that setup.  
I decided to put the mute back on and just set the bridge as low as it would go, now the tension is perfect and the intonation is nearly dead-on.
Compared to the D'addario's, these are almost perfectly balanced.  They feel tighter (with the current setup) and MUCH more solid (opposed to squishy).
The E is more defined and all the strings have a lot more depth in general, but in a richer/darker, less percussive way than a long scale bass.  
I think they do bring out more resonance and sustain from the wood.  
The Chromes had more of a jazzy mwah or 'meow' type of sound; the notes would float over the music instead of sink down to anchor it.  They did have more sustain in the way that roundwounds have, which I'm sure some players would prefer.
To me the Labella's feel much more comfortable and sit better in the mix, both in loud rock and psychedelic folk music.
Thanks again for the good advice everyone!

jules

  • *****
  • 3068
    • View Profile
Labella deep talkin'
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2010, 12:34:43 PM »
Quote
The Chromes had more of a jazzy mwah or 'meow' type of sound; the notes would float over the music instead of sink down to anchor it. They did have more sustain in the way that roundwounds have, which I'm sure some players would prefer.
To me

Nicely described - thanks for the update. I've been happy with the Labellas, but I would like to try the GHS Precision Flatwounds now too

 

Recent posts on vintage guitar and bass

1970 Rosetti Epiphone guitar catalogScan of 1970 Epiphone guitar catalogue produced by Rosetti for the UK market. Undated but most likely from mid-late 1970, this was the first UK catalogue to show the new range of Japanese (Matsumoku) Epiphone guitars. Interestingly, these pages show the Epiphone solid bodies with a single-sided Fender-style headstock layout - a feature quickly replaced with a typical two-sided Epiphone headstock almost immediately. Epiphone electric guitars: 9520, 9525; bass guitars: 9521, 9526; acoustic guitars: 6730, 6830, 6834
1971 A World of Guitars by Rosetti catalogueScan of 1971 Rosetti catalogue (UK) featuring guitars from from numerous manufacturers worldwide: guitars by Epiphone, Hagstrom, Levin, Hoyer, Egmond, Eros, Moridaira, Kiso-Suzuki, Schaller, and Tatra.
1971 Selmer guitar catalogueScan of 1971 Selmer guitar catalogue showing the range of electric and acoustic guitars distributed by the company: guitars by Gibson, Yamaha, Selmer, Hofner and Suzuki. 1960s Selmer had always placed Hofner at the front end of their catalogues, no doubt these were the better sellers - but into the 1970s Hofner were slipping somewhat and only appear at the tail end of this publication, pride of place going to Gibson, and to a lesser extent Yamaha. In fact this is the last Selmer catalogue to include the many Hofner hollow bodies (Committee, President, Senator etc) that had defined the companies output for so many years - to be replaced in the 1972 catalogue by generic solid body 'copies' of Gibson and Fender models. A number of new Gibson models are included for the first time: the SG-100 and SG-200 six string guitars and the SB-300 and SB-400 basses.
1968 Selmer guitar catalogueScan of 1968/1969 Selmer guitar catalogue (printed July 1968), showing the entire range of electric and acoustic guitars distributed by the company: guitars by Hofner, Gibson, Selmer and Giannini. Selmer were the exclusive United Kingdom distributors of Hofner and Gibson at the time, and this catalogue contains a total of 18 electric guitars, 7 bass guitars, 37 acoustics, and 2 Hawaiian guitars - all produced outside the UK and imported by Selmer, with UK prices included in guineas. This catalogue saw the (re-)introduction of the late sixties Gibson Les Paul Custom and Les Paul Standard (see page 69) and the short-lived Hofner Club 70. Other electric models include: HOFNER ELECTRICS: Committee, Verithin 66, Ambassador, President, Senator, Galaxie, HOFNER BASSES: Violin bass, Verithin bass, Senator bass, Professional bass GIBSON ELECTRICS: Barney Kessel, ES-330TD, ES-335TD, ES-345TD, ES-175D, ES-125CD, SG Standard, SG Junior, SG Special GIBSON BASSES: EB-0, EB-2, EB-3 - plus a LOT of acoustics branded Gibson, Hofner, Selmer and Giannini
1961 Hofner Colorama IHofner Colorama was the name UK distributor Selmer gave to a series of solid and semi-solid guitars built by Hofner for distribution in the UK. The construction and specifications of the guitars varied over the period of production, but by 1961 it was a totally solid, double cutaway instrument, with a set neck, translucent cherry finish, six-in-a-row headstock, and Hofner Diamond logo pickups. Available as a single or dual pickup guitar, this sngle pickup version would have been sold in mainland Europe as the Hofner 161.
1971 Commodore N25 (Matsumoku)Commodore was a brand applied to a series of guitars produced in Japan at the well-respected Matsumoku plant from the late 1960s to the mid 1970s - and sold primarily (perhaps exclusively?) in the United Kingdom. The models bearing the Commodore name were all guitars available from different distributors with different branding. Although there may have been some minor changes in appointments (specifically headstock branding) most had the same basic bodies, hardware and construction. Equivalent models to the Commodore N25 (and this is by no means an exhaustive list) include the Aria 5102T, Conrad 5102T(?), Electra 2221, Lyle 5102T, Ventura V-1001, Univox Coily - and most famously the Epiphone 5102T / Epiphone EA-250.
1960 Hofner Colorama IIThe Hofner Colorama was the name given by Selmer to a series of solid (and semi-solid) body Hofner guitars distributed in the United Kingdom between 1958 and 1965. The Colorama name actually applied to some quite different guitars over the period, but in 1960 it was a very light, semi-solid, set necked guitar with one (Colorama I) or two (Colorama II, as seen here) Toaster pickups. Although an entry-level guitar, it was very well-built, and a fine playing guitar; certainly a step up (at least in terms of craftsmanship) from many of the Colorama guitars that would follow, and a good deal of the guitars available in Britain circa 1960.
1971 Epiphone 1820 (ET-280) bassBy the end of the 1960s, a decision had been made to move Epiphone guitar production from the USA (at the Kalamazoo plant where Gibson guitars were made), to Matsumoto in Japan, creating a line of guitars and basses significantly less expensive than the USA-built models (actually less than half the price). The Matsumoku factory had been producing guitars for export for some time, but the 1820 bass (alongside a number of guitar models and the 5120 electric acoustic bass) were the first Epiphone models to be made there. These new Epiphones were based on existing Matsumoku guitars, sharing body shapes, and hardware, but the Epiphone line was somewhat upgraded, with inlaid logos and a 2x2 peghead configuration. Over the course of the 70s, the Japanese output improved dramatically, and in many ways these early 70s models are a low point for the brand. Having said this, there are a lot worse guitars out there, and as well as being historically important, the 1820 bass can certainly provide the goods when required.
1981 Gibson MarauderProduction of Bill Lawrence's Gibson Marauder began in 1974, with production peaking in 1978. But by 1980 the model was officially discontinued, though very small numbers slipped out as late as spring 1981. Over 7000 examples shipped between 1974 and 1979, and although no totals are available for 1980 and 1981, it is unlikely production reached three figures in either of these years. These final Marauders were all assembled at the Gibson Nashville plant, and had some nice features not available through the later years of production, such as a rosewood fretboard, and in this case, an opaque 'Devil Red' finish. It's a great looking and fine playing guitar!