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Varitone switch sounds on EB3

barend

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« on: June 09, 2008, 10:49:23 PM »
I have just bought a 1968 EB3. I played on it today but I am little bit confused about the varitone switch and the combination with the volume knobs.

Can someone describe exactly what each position of the varitone switch should do?

to me position 2 and 3 sound almost similar.

I just want to be sure that my bass has the original wiring

barend

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 11:59:38 PM »
ok, I have found what the switch does. Correct me if I am wrong:

position 1: neck pickup with tone choke
position 2: bridge pickup
position 3: both pickups
position 4: neck pickup

what is strange in position 3 is that when I set the volume of the neck pickup all the way down and the volume of the bridge pickup all the way up there is no sound. It is also like that the other way around (neck pickup set to 10, bridge pickup to 0).

Does this has something to do with series or parallel wiring? and is that way it should be?

Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 06:13:30 AM »
Position 3 is both pickups with the neck pickup through the choke, (I think, or it might be the choke and a resistor, or just a resistor) which is why it sounds almost the same as position 2, (bridge pickup)
The choke or resistor strangles the neck pickup to the point where the little bridge mini humbucker almost completely drowns it out!
I always thought the chokes Gibson put in guitars (they were used in ES-345s and ES355s too) and basses were a really dumb idea. I suppose they were trying to get the most sounds possible with the passive circuitry available at the time, but it always sounded lousy to me. All they can do is cut a frequency. They also had a few resistors in the EB-3 circuit which can only be to knock down the output of something or to isolate pickups from each other in certain combinations, which usually has a detrimental effect on tone.
I was told ages ago by the late noted amp guru Ken Fischer of Trainwreck fame (he was local to me and I was over there a lot with repairs in the '80s) that the EB-3s played by Jack Bruce and Andy Fraser were modded by someone in the UK. I know about the Dan Armstrong diode mod in Jack's bass, but this referred to something else.
It's virtually impossible to duplicate Fraser's tone with a stock EB-3. Once I had an EB-0 that had an EB-3 treble pickup added, but no Vaitone, just straight, both pickups in parallel...that was the Fraser tone! Wouldn't surprise me if that was the mod.
If I remember correctly, Ken got this info from a guy named Carl Hill, who played bass in a band called Doug Brockie's Sky Force who were in the Cream mold. Carl played an EB-3 at the time and was/IS a gifted player. He played with Ginger Baker in the '70s for a brief while.
Anyway, as for the volume pot issue, that's normal for just about all Gibsons. It's how they're wired, if you turn either volume control down all the way with both pickups on it will turn the bass off. All pickup combinations in an EB-3 are parallel, by the way.

barend

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2008, 08:54:12 AM »
Thanks guitarshark that is just the info I needed!.
So now I know the wiring on my bass is original.
Didn't know about the tone choke of the neck pickup in position 3...that is what got me confused in the beginning.

that brings another question to my mind:
Is it possible to have it modded so position 3 (or position 4 which is too muddy for me) will be both pickups, plain without tone choke? and how do I do that?

and what position of the variswitch do you think Jack Bruce was using?
(position 3 with neck pickup at 10 and bridge at 8 comes close I think)

Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2008, 02:51:23 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks guitarshark that is just the info I needed!.
So now I know the wiring on my bass is original.
Didn't know about the tone choke of the neck pickup in position 3...that is what got me confused in the beginning.

that brings another question to my mind:
Is it possible to have it modded so position 3 (or position 4 which is too muddy for me) will be both pickups, plain without tone choke? and how do I do that?

and what position of the variswitch do you think Jack Bruce was using?
(position 3 with neck pickup at 10 and bridge at 8 comes close I think)

It's possible. I had it done to a '68 EB-3 back in '85. The guy that did it for me said it was a pain to do it...he had to strip all the existing wires and resistors from the wafer switch and go through it with a multimeter to figure out which contacts connected to where.
It was: position 1, straight neck pickup, pos. 2, straight bridge pickup, (these 2 were the same as stock) position 3, both pickups in parallel, no choke or resistors. There's really nothing for position 4 to do unless you wanted to install a 3 or 4 conductor lead on one pickup for coil split or phase reversal.
I replaced the mudbucker with a DiMarzio Model One on that bass in '85 and used pos. 4 for the Dual Sound (parallel coils) I hated that pickup, though. Before I tried the DiMarzio, I had the mudbucker wired for coil split. Didn't make that much difference in the sound, slightly less output, slightly more hum!
I think you're very close to the Jack Bruce setting. I never went though photos to see how he had the Varitone set, but I arrived at basically the same settings as you except I rolled back the tone a bit on the bridge pickup. It seems much brighter than Jack's tone with the tone full up, but of course it depends on your amp and amp settings too.
Caveat: If your bass' electronics are stock, you should think carefully before modding them. You'll seriously devalue the bass by altering it.

barend

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2008, 09:27:07 PM »
thanks again for the info,

I am not going to change the pickups. I like them just how they are. If it is such a big change I keep it this way. I thought it maybe was a small mod to get the sound of both plain pickups but apparently it is not that easy.

Quote from: guitarshark
Anyway, as for the volume pot issue, that's normal for just about all Gibsons. It's how they're wired, if you turn either volume control down all the way with both pickups on it will turn the bass off. All pickup combinations in an EB-3 are parallel, by the way.


why is this so? I think it is kind of unlogical. Most (non Gibson) basses with two pickups have independent volume pots for both pickups. That makes it easier for dialing in the sound of one of the pickups.
And what models of Gibson are you talking about?. I have three: EB3, SG RI and G3 and I had a Ripper once. Only the EB3 has this.

Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 09:48:59 PM »
why is this so? I think it is kind of unlogical. Most (non Gibson) basses with two pickups have independent volume pots for both pickups. That makes it easier for dialing in the sound of one of the pickups.
And what models of Gibson are you talking about?. I have three: EB3, SG RI and G3 and I had a Ripper once. Only the EB3 has this.

I don't really know. Just about all 2 pickup 2 volume control Gibsons are this way.
Go into a store and try out any Les Paul, SG, or ES-335, etc. guitar, that's how they are.
The Ripper and G-3 have a single volume control for all pickups, and the SG RI has no toggle, it's wired like a Jazz Bass, (volume, volume, tone, so this doesn't apply to these instruments.
Why did they do it that way? Maybe they didn't know of any other way to do it. Maybe they figured that you'd use the volume controls to get a blend but you wouldn't need to turn either volume pot down all the way since you have the toggle switch to get one pickup or the other full on. Example: '60-/61 stack knob Fender Jazz Basses were wired like this, Without a toggle switch, it woulldn't be good if turning one of the volume controls down all the way shut the bass off, so Fender added two 220K resistors to isolate the pickups from each other. This works, but F***s up the sound. Stock stack knobs are kinda dull sounding because of this.
When Fender reissued the stack knobs in '82 they wired them a little differently, 2 wires are moved, there's an extra wire not found on an original, and no resistors. This circuit sounds much better, but when either TONE pot is turned down past a certain point, one pot starts to affect both pickups. I'm not an electronics expert, but perhaps you can't have completely independent controls.

barend

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 10:12:27 PM »
Very interesting points!

that brings me to two another questions regarding the EB3. Don't want to start another topic.

When I use position 4 (neck pickup solo) of the EB3 I have a nice and very useful sound, not too muddy as I expected but a nice growl. But when I solo the neck pickup of my SG RI surpreme it sounds much more muddy than on the EB3 so you almost need to dial in the neck pickup. Do some of you have the same experience?

and question number two:
the tuners on the 1968 EB3 are not the ear shaped tuners but the other ones that you see on Gibsons a lot. They have the Gibson logo and 'made in germany' printed on, I guess they are Schallers.
But I think these tuners are original, since there are absolutely no signs of holes or whatever from other tuners. And these tuners are smaller than the ear shaped tuners so you must be able see it if they had been replaced.
I also checked the serial number and the pots and the bass is from 1968.
So what year were these other tuners put on Gibson basses for the first time?

eb2

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2008, 07:52:28 AM »
About the tuners - they seem to show up on Gibsons sometime after 1968.  They appear on EB2s after the EB3s venture into the slot-head style.  The EB2s kept the regular headstock, and old tuners, but sometime afterwards the Schallers show up on those, so early 70s.  There appears to be an odd number of later EB3s that have them stock, but the question is when did the leave the factory?  Several - like yours - have 1968 features and serial numbers, but it is not unheard of for Gibson basses to seemingly have been hanging around partially finished.  There have been a few odd cases where that would make more sense, such as a typically 70s tuner showing up on a bass made before they were used.  Or the old tailpieces or finger-rest metal pieces on a bass that was made long after the switch.  I suspect that Gibson was trying to cut back the number of seconds, and may have been keeping a stock of things that could be used/fixed later with parts, new necks, etc.
boom

doom

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2008, 08:27:38 AM »
My EB-3 (solid headstock) also has those tuners. Pot codes show 25th week of 1969.

I don't think the original wiring of the EB-3 is optimal for my use so I ended up making a redrawn scematic for it. I have'nt actually rewired yet but the thought is it should in:

Pos1. Mudbucker full out with no choke function at all. Originally it actually cuts whatever high frequensy comes out of it.

Pos2. Both pups and Mudbucker still unchoked.

Pos3. Both pups and Mudbucker using the resistor and cap only.

Pos4. Both pickups and also activating the coil. Same as original pos 3.



Original schematics:


barend

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2008, 09:58:20 AM »
good to know that your bass has the same tuners. Now I know for sure that these are original on my 68 EB3.

Let me know how it sounds if you have it rewired. Still I also like the sound with the bridge pickup soloed. If you add some bass on your amp it sounds good.

And about the muddier sounding SG RI neck pickup:
Of course the SG RI has the same pickup as a Thunderbird and therefore sounds different (muddier) than the neck pickup of the EB3.
It lacks a bit the growl that the EB3 has.

Do you think position 4 (neck pickup solo) is too muddy? I like it.
What is muddy is position 1, the neck pickup with the choke, not a lot of defenition there. I don't think I can use that sound in a band. What I also noticed it that position 1 is louder than all other positions. Why is that?

Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2008, 12:32:30 AM »
I have a Walnut slothead EB-3, it sounds good, I usually use position 3 and cut the tone a little. I do wish there was a way to run both pickups wide open though with no choke and be able to adjust the volumes, back off the neck pickup a little, I wonder what it would sound like? I hate to rewire it though as it's pretty good shape and all original except for the bridge cover.

barend

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 09:16:09 AM »
Do you use the string damper a lot?

I like it, but I noticed that I have to tune my g string when I put the damper on, the tone goes sharp when using it. Is there a way to avoid that?

doom

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Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2008, 12:23:11 AM »
Hi' Bob! Nice to see you here. You helped me back in the DP days with wiring my Ric in a good way (adjustable bridge cap). The reason I've hesitated to rewire is also the nice original condition but maybe I will reconsider since basses are supposed to fulfill your needs and a rewiring is not irreversable. Maybe some day....

Varitone switch sounds on EB3
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2008, 02:47:54 AM »
Quote from: barend
Do you use the string damper a lot?

I like it, but I noticed that I have to tune my g string when I put the damper on, the tone goes sharp when using it. Is there a way to avoid that?


Yes, loosen the acorn nut on the G string side until the problem disappears...that's what they're there for.

 

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