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1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« on: May 28, 2012, 07:25:38 AM »
Greetings to all here.

As a newbie, I hope you won't find too many of the questions I have silly, or be bored by the EB0's history.

My background: after high school (1975) I did a two-year diploma program in Jazz Performance at a local college. My main instruments were baritone and tenor sax, but I also played some electric bass. I was very, very poor, and took a horrible weekend gig, bassist in a C&W band. I managed mainly because the band played everything in one key - I didn't need to know very much bass technique. I used a borrowed Rickenbacker bass nicknamed "the Purple Smartie".

I also taught woodwinds at local music stores. One of my employers,  come payday, pleaded no cash. Since he was a bit bent, I insisted on payment in kind if he couldn't pay cash. After haggling, I walked out with a 1962 Gibson EB0, s/n 86082. It was not in good shape - the finish was beaten up, and someone had "Improved" it by routing the body and installing a Fender Jazz Bass neck pickup at an angle, halfway between the original Gibson mudbucker and the bridge. (mudbucker had and has the black phenolic cover). The control wiring was a mishmash put together with friction tape and spit. The scratchplate and finger rest were missing. Surprisingly it played reasonably well.

About five years later, I got tired of looking at the horrible finish. So I stripped it - carefully - and found lovely  mahogany under the grunge. Rather than the original Cherry, I used a slightly lighter redwood finish which allowed the grain to show, and topped it with a polyurethane clearcoat (What can I say - I was young, ignorant, and not rich).

By this time I was playing sax full time, on and off the road, and using the bass less and less. No more C&W bars! Eventually the EB0 sat in my closet for many years. After 14 years of playing full-time professionally, I decided I didn't want to be on the road at 50, and so got a Masters degree in electrical engineering while still playing in-town gigs and recording commercials, etc. playing sax.

Around 2005, some colleagues and I discovered a mutual interest in forming a garage band, largely influenced by Dire Straits. I extracted the EB0, and plugged in, only to discover that the Fender pickup was not operating. Checks showed the coil was an open-circuit. I rewired the single mudbucker, and played it with one pickup.

However, I hated the look of the empty body cavity where the JB pickup had lived, and also realized that in spite of my refinishing and the earlier butchery, it was still fair example of EB0. Nice wood, neck, action, original machine heads, no cracks, and the mudbucker thumped out the lows. Clearly, some TLC was warranted.

However, around that time a chronic illness forced me toward retirement on disabilty. I went on pension in 2010. This period interfered with the EB0 project (and everything else). After beginning to go stir-crazy - I couldn't play sax due to illness - I acquired a Squier Strat and practice amp. I've been slowly learning the rudiments of guitar playing, bartering lessons. Meanwhile, the EB0 is staring at me with hurt feelings.

I'd like to do some work on this bass, but I am not sure how or where to begin. Option 1 is to install a Jazz Bass neck pickup and try to put together some way of wiring it up with the mudbucker. Option 2 is to have a luthier plug the cavity (which is routed to the shape of the JB pickup, and therefore awkward), then strip the finish and  respray to the original cherry red. Expense puts this in the future. Option 3 is a combination of #1 and refinishing.  Option 4. is to make some kind of cover for the JB cavity, rewire the mudbucker controls to Gibson specs, and leave it there - butt ugly but working. I may also buy a replacement scratch plate, or make a custom one. Given that it's already been "altered", a custom scratchplate might not look out of place.

I am leaning toward starting with option #1, then later having it refinished by a professional luthier. However:
If I go the route of installing a JB pickup and revising the controls, what pickup to use? There are Chinese JB neck pickups on EBay for $9.00, and at the other end of the scale Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, Lindy F., etc. Then, there's the actual control circuit. What circuit would work decently, given that the mudbucker has a DC resistance of 30 KOhms, and most JB pickups 6.5 - 7.5 kOhms. Some variant of EB3 wiring?

I realize that I've written a very long post with many questions, and as a newbie (and not much of a bass player), some are probably pretty obvious to the experts. But I've learned there are no stupid questions. I've researched EB0's, various pickups, and read everything I could find - and I still don't really know where or how to begin.

Any opinions welcome. Thanks,
Jim
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 07:39:00 AM by Jim Baritone »

jules

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1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 03:50:37 PM »
Hi Jim,

i'd also go with option 1. EB0s are not incredibly valuable even when complete and all original, so unless you can do some of the luthier work yourself it will most likely cost more than it is worth to try and hide the route. And besides, the extra versatility of another pickup is certainly very useful...

So you might as well put another pickup in. Depending on the route you have you could perhaps try a rio grande pitbull (this will probably require an enlargement), a darkstar (if you can find one) or just another jazz pickup.

I would suggest a simple three way switch. Very simple and pretty effective. Or if you have access to a tone choke you could try to replicate the wiring of an EB3?

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 09:36:29 PM »
Quote from: jules;17012
Hi Jim,

i'd also go with option 1. EB0s are not incredibly valuable even when complete and all original, so unless you can do some of the luthier work yourself it will most likely cost more than it is worth to try and hide the route. And besides, the extra versatility of another pickup is certainly very useful...

So you might as well put another pickup in. Depending on the route you have you could perhaps try a rio grande pitbull (this will probably require an enlargement), a darkstar (if you can find one) or just another jazz pickup.

I would suggest a simple three way switch. Very simple and pretty effective. Or if you have access to a tone choke you could try to replicate the wiring of an EB3?

Hi Jules,
Thank you very much for your thoughts. The versatility of the 2nd pickup attracts me also, since the cavity is already there. The years have dimmed the memory a bit, but the original haywired dual pickups gave some interesting tone variants. There was a 3 position 2 layer rotary switch - phenolic about WWII vintage - that switched the two. Unfortunately, it crumbled to bits, as old phenolic board will.

I'm not familiar with the rio grande or the darkstar (I haven't seen those names before), but I'll definitely investigate them. I think your suggestion of a simple 3-way switch is a good one - I like simple and straightforward - easier to wire, trace, and troubleshoot if necessary. Also, it would not require further butchery of the control cavity.
I don't have access to an EB3 tone choke. However, since I'm a lapsed electrical engineer and also a ham radio operator, winding chokes is something I've done before. If I know the parameters, I can probably wind a good facsimile, assuming it's one of the standard types of choke.

I had thought about trying to rewind the original Fender JB pickup, and even went so far as to start removing wire. However, I found 4 breaks in the first thousand turns removed, so the original wire is definitely not re-useable. I don't have a source of cheap magnet wire. I could try unwinding old can-type ignition coil secondaries, or large solenoids as a wire source, but it's difficult to keep the enamel insulation intact. If I have to buy 9000 turns of new 42 gauge magnet wire, I may as well just buy a pickup, and save the aggro. Home rewinding could cost more than buying new. Even if successful, the result would still be no better than a stock 60's JB pickup.  

I've flirted, mentally, with the idea of enlarging the routed cavity and installing a second Gibson-type humbucker, making it into something similar to an EB3. However, because the original JB pup install was angled, any square hole would be larger than the mudbucker cavity. Some kind of surround plate might be needed, depending on pup shape and dimensions.  

One other question I've mulled over while reading various threads is the idea of installing active pickups. However, it's probably a can of worms best left alone.

If I can find a decent 2nd pickup with a good output, it sounds like that's the way to go. I can't afford to be really extravagant, but from what you've said, there are aftermarket pickups that could sound good and not break the bank. Impedance matching is probably the only technical issue, if I follow your suggestion of a 3-way switch.

Many thanks for your thoughtful advice. I'd best get to work doing some more research. I should take a few pictures of the EB0 as it is now - before and after comparisons are useful, as well as some "along the way" shots.

Jim

A P.S. regarding the finish. I looked at it again today, and my 1980 refinish work was not as horrible as I first thought. What's mainly needed is to wet-sand the top clearcoat with 1200 grit, and then lightly use a cloth wheel and some very gentle polishing compound. That would bring up the body nicely. Make and add a custom pickguard - maybe in exotic wood veneer laminated together - and the overall look could be pretty nice. Not the stock b/w/b - but then the bass is already well away from being stock.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 09:50:08 PM by Jim Baritone »

mrbass

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1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 02:39:21 PM »
Have a look at this page. Mike Watt is the master of modding EB0s - he uses a pitball too

http://hootpage.com/hoot_gallery-thudstaffs.html

and this

https://www.flyguitars.com/interviews/mikewatt3.php

one other thing - watch your polepiece spacing with the new pickups - that is why your pickup was angled, to get the polepieces under the strings... an EB0 has narrower string spacing than a jazz bass

mrbass

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1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 02:47:14 PM »
And can see some pics please?

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2012, 04:20:33 PM »
Quote from: mrbass;17019
And can see some pics please?


Absolutely! I'll get some pics up as soon as the camera battery is charged up.

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2012, 10:43:56 PM »
Some pictures of my ('62?) EB0 as it is at present. Note the original Cherry color inside the control cavity in images 10 and 11.
The original Humbucker pickup is working fine, and puts out plenty of signal with that characteristic low-end "woof".

The potentiometer knobs that came with it were not stock, and I've removed them. They were mismatched knobs from an old radio or something. What would be the correct style of knob for an EB0 of this period?

The original Gibson hard case was stolen at a gig, and I've got it in a gig bag for now. EB0 cases are a bit thin on the ground.

I found the thumb rest and screws in a small plastic bag in one of the side pockets, and I've put that back on.

The b/w/b scratch plate was missing when I got it, and in any case I'm thinking that a custom plate might be an interesting addition. There's a picture of a particularly nice exotic wood laminate one I've seen - I'll try to post it.

Whether to leave the colour as is, or refinish it in the original Cherry is another question.

I've drawn a schematic of the wiring as it is now, it's included at the end of the photos.  

The remainder of the pictures will follow in the next post


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« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 11:23:30 PM by Jim Baritone »

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2012, 11:09:24 PM »
The remaining pictures of my ('62?) EB0 with routed cavity for Fender Jazz Bass neck pickup mounted between the stock Humbucker neck pickup and the bridge.

The original Cherry color can be seen inside the control cavity.

The bass came fitted with quick-disconnect strap attachments, and I kept these as they're very handly. I've also included a schematic of the wiring as it is at present. The schematic shows the Jazz Bass pickup although that has, of course, been removed since it's broken. As noted by MrBass, the routed cavity for the JB pickup is angled so that its pole pieces would line up with the strings.

I'm dating this bass as 1962 because of a) the humbucker pickup cover type and position, the bridge type, c) the head and "elephant ear" machine heads, and d) the serial number, 86082. 1962 is my best guess, but if someone more knowledgeable can date it more accurately, I'd be glad to learn.

As you can see, the wiring currently has two pots and one two-way switch. Another thread on this forum, also about an EB0 restoration, suggested using a Les Paul wiring harness - two volume pots, two tone pots, and a 3-way switch. This would be a tight fit! Jules has suggested using a single 3-way switch - I presume this would be neck, blend, or bridge. Would a single volume and tone control be adequate, or would a volume control for each pickup be more useful?

Lots to do on this one.

Jim



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« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 12:04:00 AM by Jim Baritone »

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2012, 11:38:16 PM »
Quote from: mrbass;17017
Have a look at this page. Mike Watt is the master of modding EB0s - he uses a pitball too

http://hootpage.com/hoot_gallery-thudstaffs.html

and this

https://www.flyguitars.com/interviews/mikewatt3.php

one other thing - watch your polepiece spacing with the new pickups - that is why your pickup was angled, to get the polepieces under the strings... an EB0 has narrower string spacing than a jazz bass

Thank you for the Mike Watt links - very interesting reading. What you've pointed out about why the JB pickup rout was angled makes perfect sense. I had a real *doh* moment when I read that.

I saw a reference somewhere to ARTEC Alnico 5 pickups, and I found a couple of reviews, one good, one bad. There was the suggestion that they were a bit "hotter" than the Fender JB pickups, but not hugely expensive. Any opinions on these? I might have to go with something lower priced, until I find and have saved up for a Darkstar or Rio.

I didn't mention it in the two "picture posts", but one thing I definitely intend to do is heavily shield everything I can. A metal enclosure inside the control cavity, conductive foil (at a minimum) in the pickup cavities, and metallic/conductive paint in those also. I think I can solder up a "can" for the control cavity out of sheet copper or sheet brass - I have the tools for that, anyhow.

One problem I think we all find with the Internet is that there's plenty of data out there, but some of it is poor, or just plain wrong.

Thanks for your information,
Jim
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 11:42:54 PM by Jim Baritone »

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2012, 11:59:49 PM »
Attached is a picture I found on the net and saved. Unfortunately, I didn't make a note of the URL, and I haven't been able to find the site again. It's a very nice EB-? rebuild with a custom scratch plate in exotic wood laminate. I'd like to do something along this line for my own EB0.

If my newfound learning is correct, the pickups appear to be Darkstars, but I stand to be corrected - as a newbie, my knowledge still has wide gaps.

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 12:06:36 AM by Jim Baritone »

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2012, 12:00:52 AM »
Based on what I've read, and since nodead forum member has come forward with comments or suggestions after I posted the photos, here's what I see as some steps to refurbishing/restoration. Your comments or suggestions would be welcome.



1. For now, replace dead Fender JB pickup with Fender stock neck pickup, or good aftermarket replacement with same dimensions.

2. Decide how to wire the two pickups. Jules has suggested a 3-way switch and that sounds like a reasonable idea.

Should the positions be Neck, Blend (both in parallel?) and Bridge?

Please offer opinion or suggestions about this if you have any. FWIW, the stock Gibson Humbucker still works fine.
 
From the 3-way switch, signal would go to a single set of volume/tone pots, then to the jack.

3. Another option would be to use individual volume and tone pots for each pickup, one pair between each of the pickups and the 3-way switch.

Any pros or cons to this?

Because of the space limitation, stacked or ganged pots, one pair for each pup, would be a clean way to go. No additional holes would have to be drilled. Ganged pots are available, as are pairs of knobs with an outer ring and center knob.

One open question with this option is what wiring configuration to use?


4. Add in capacitors or a choke as required to achieve a range of tone colors.


5.- Find Darkstar and/or Rio Grande pickups, new or used. (This step may, of course, come in earlier in the process, depending on availability).


6. Find a Gibson hard case to fit the EB0, or failing that, any hard case that would fit. [Maybe the s..o.b. who stole mine will put it in the classified ads...]


7. Find a new gig-sized bass amp and cabinet. Marshall?  ;-)  Something more suitable than a Vox Pathfinder or a Squier SP-10.

8. Possibly do other mods as suggested by forum members. (anywhere in process).
One example is adding a switch-selected capacitor network to supplement the tone control(s).

Thanks,
Jim B.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 01:56:23 AM by Jim Baritone »

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2012, 12:46:27 AM »
Nothing to add to help you-I'm just very jealous of your skills and knowledge of electronics. Best of luck, and I hope that baby ends up 1,000 times better then you hoped!

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2012, 01:49:33 AM »
Quote from: Strange Brew;17038
Nothing to add to help you-I'm just very jealous of your skills and knowledge of electronics. Best of luck, and I hope that baby ends up 1,000 times better then you hoped!

Strange Brew,

 I thank you, kind sir, for the compliment. While I have a certain amount of experience with electronics and wiring things up, I don't know how much translates to the bass guitars.  

When I look at "schematics" like the ones in this post,

( http://forums.vintageguitarandbass.com/showthread.php?1521-EB3-tone-choke-removal&p=16232#post16232 )

I just give my head a shake - hard to make sense of. Looking at the EB3 diagram, I wonder if Gibson just took a handful of pots, caps and switches, and then handed them to an employee and said, "hook all this up, will ya?"

OK. So maybe that's a bit harsh. But as others have observed, some of the wiring practices Gibson used are a touch odd, like wiring the pickup output to one end of a pot, instead of to the wiper contact.

I think the question that's lurking in the back of my mind runs along the lines of:
OK, I've got an intact original mudbucker that works just fine and has bags of output.

Then, if I pop in a Fender replacement, I've got a pickup with different characteristics (7 kOhms DC, output level ??).

It would be nice to get the best qualities of both, separately or together. Finding a wiring hookup to do that is an interesting challenge.

That's one reason I like the idea of installing two pickups the same - Darkstars, for instance. At least then the pickups are the same electrically, so the controls that work for one ought to work for the other.

Money being the way it is, this project will be step-by-step over many months. I'd like to be able to play it along the way, some of the time. (Amp wanted!)

I'd like to do the best job I can on the old beast. She deserves some TLC after all this time. The rebuilt EB in post #10

( http://forums.vintageguitarandbass.com/showthread.php?3661-1962-EB0-in-need-of-TLC-newbie-seeks-advice&p=17033#post17033 )

is a beautiful job. It gives me something to aim towards. It'll certainly be an interesting project.

As to the finish, I'm really torn. Let the mahogany grain show through, or respray in Gibson Cherry Red? Like Mark Knopfler said during the Wembley '85 concert, "When I was a kid, all I wanted was a red electric guitar".  Me too.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 02:02:10 AM by Jim Baritone »

1962 EB0 in need of TLC, newbie seeks advice
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 06:04:10 AM »
Found a chart today listing electrical characteristics of early Gibson humbuckers (EB0 type) and Fender JB pickups. Combining the output of these two is clearly going to need some thought as to wiring design. I don't think the stock Gibson or Fender circuits will accommodate the mismatch without producing a very crappy output signal.

Thoughts or comments welcome.

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