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70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!

Lors

70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!
« on: March 30, 2008, 12:05:46 PM »
Hi guys

I found this gorgeous bass and accidentally bought it! It's green and yellow and in decent nick, I think these were only made for 3 years in the 70s but have no idea of the value as there don't seem to be any others about!

Any ideas?

Cheers

Lors

70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 04:50:50 PM »
Hi - could you post some pics?

I'm guessing from your description it's a Matsumoku-built copy, I have seen an Aria Rick copy in a green/yellow burst, and discussion at the matsumoku.org forums has linked the Pearl/Vorg brand with Matsumoku.

Vintage Rickenbacker copies are very collectible for a variety of reasons - not least being the action Rickenbacker Corp takes to prevent their open sale. They're quite difficult to sell through visible channels like Ebay, auctions usually being shut down before completion.

I'm something of an enthusiast of these particular instruments, if you can post some pics I can probably ID it.

Jon.

Lors

Ricky copy by Pearl/Vorg
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2008, 02:09:50 PM »
Thanks mate - will post pics this weekend!

Laura

mrbass

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pics
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 01:57:06 PM »
Yes, i'd like to see pics too. Surely Rickenbacker can't stop you selling a copy made years ago on ebay can they? I mean if it was preteneding to be a ric, then fair enough, but if it is marked as something else....

Ricky

Re: pics
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2008, 11:26:45 AM »
Quote from: mrbass
Yes, i'd like to see pics too. Surely Rickenbacker can't stop you selling a copy made years ago on ebay can they? I mean if it was preteneding to be a ric, then fair enough, but if it is marked as something else....

Ricky

Well they do - whether it's actually legal or not is a different matter!

Rickenbacker International Corp own all their design trademarks - for every shape & component of their instruments. Under US law, in order to keep this ownership, they have to take action against every breach of the trademarks - if they don't, the designs can become public property & they lose any exclusive right to them.

This is where it gets a bit tricky - they can take full-on cease & desist legal action against currently produced violations (at least, once they're in the US - they can't stop Chinese factories turning them out!) but with the vintage copies, what they effectively do is sweep them under the carpet.

Ebay do RIC's "dirty work" - they'll pull "questionable" auctions rather than face the possibility of RIC's lawyers taking action against them - for facilitating the sale of counterfeit goods, or somesuch.

It's doubtful it's actually legal - in fact outside the US it simply isn't - but Ebay are able to cancel any auction - or ban any seller - they wish, for any reason, which means Ebay sales of "Rickenfakers" get pulled  whenever & wherever they're spotted.

There's a grey area surrounding RIC's design trademarks. Most of the copy basses are from the 70s (the earliest I've seen was from 1970) but the current RIC was set up in the mid 80s, by current owner / chief exec John Hall. He modernised the company & part of the process was to register Rickenbacker designs as trademarks.

However, if you search the US public record - most of the trademarks seem to date to around 2000, basically suggesting that the open existence of copies 30 years older than that cast doubt on the legality of the registration in the first place.

Obviously there's no doubt that they did originate the designs (the 4000 series bass was designed by German luthier Roger Rossmeisl, who worked for Rickenbacker in the 50s/60s) but if a legal challenge were to be made, the existence of the copies could threaten their claim to exclusivity of the designs, & I think this is a major reason why RIC are so keen to keep them out of view.

Unlike other major US manufacturers, RIC have stuck to their priciples & not licencesd a range of cheap Korean-made "Rickenbackers" - and the business remains small & family-owned, and the products are exceptionally & consistently high-quality.

As a collector of old Japanese basses & guitars, the fact the vintage copies are so hard to find, and often nearly as expensive as the real thing is something of an irritation - but I do understand the necessity for RIC's position on copies. If they lost their design trademarks, it would seriously threaten the future of the company - and a world without "real" Rickenbackers would be a poorer one.

J.

Dave W

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70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2008, 09:05:09 PM »
RIC can't keep anyone from buying and selling Rick copies that are no longer made. However if you put it on eBay and describe it as a Rickenbacker copy, you're violating their trademark rights to the name. That violates eBay rules even if the RIC folks don't happen to see it. OTOH, I once saw a Rick copy listing pulled that did not refer to Rickenbacker by name. If RIC had eBay pull that, I consider that an abuse.

Now about those body shape trademarks: if a name, logo or product shape qualifies for a trademark under the law, then the trademark exists from the minute it's introduced into commerce. Registering the trademark isn't mandatory, it just gives the owner more of a legal basis if it comes down to defending it in court. Registration can be applied for years later or not at all. Trademarks on the shapes of products weren't even made a part of US law until 1988. The fact that there used to be Rick copies on the market before that is not a problem.

What it all boils down to is this: when you look at the shape of a Rick bass, do you identify it as a Rick or do you just think of it as a bass? If you think of it as a Rick, then it has "acquired distictiveness" beyond just being a bass, so it qualifies for a trademark. Of course, not everything is black and white, that's why there are so many trademark lawsuits.

70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 02:30:13 PM »
Thanks for clarifying that, Dave - I'm in the UK which means some of the finer details of US legislation arn't necassarily clear - despite the fact that one way or another, they still carry some weight here!

Ebay can & do remove auctions that don't use the Rickenbacker name, I have seen this happen numerous times. In fact according to a poster on another forum I use - they have removed an auction for simply implying what the guitar in question is:

http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&show ... t&p=186974

The seller intends to challenge this - it will be interesting to see what the result is.

Jon.

70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 04:04:52 PM »
ebay are a law unto themselves :(

they've pulled a few of my auctions in the past for totally innocent 1960s glamour mags but allowed seriously weird fetish mags (rubber nurse type things) :lol: ...i used to work in book and mag distribution and kept all my samples..it's a real pain i can't just list them but have to sneak the odd mag on and take my chances

they're far too quick to pull guitar auctions imho..and Rickenbackers seem to get pulled more than any other guitar..i wouldn't mind so much but they don't pull the obvious fraud attempts from china when they're pointed out to them

Copies
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 08:21:39 PM »
Hello lads and lasses,

I've been trying to find a descent Rickenbacker Bass copy
on ebay for a while now, but as you're not allowed to
mention Rickenbacker in the title, I haven't really
come acorss any yet.

Can anyone list any Rick copies that I could search for?

Cheers.

Lors

Pics
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2008, 11:33:04 AM »
Help!   Am trying to upload my pics but can't! Clicked on image button but nothing's happening.........can't copy/paste it either!

Very interesting posts guys!
I bought this bass from my local guitar shop so didn't run into any copyright problems - it's playing really well and I love it!

If anyone can help me get these pics up I'd be most grateful!

Lors
[/img]

Lors

Ricky copy Pics
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2008, 11:37:37 AM »
In the meantime here's a link to my myspace page - the pics are there!

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... b97c509ae4

Lors

70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 02:19:31 PM »
:cry: won't let me view your album.."invalid id for this album"

what's your myspace name so i can do a friends request to get access to your pics?  8)

Lors

Ricky copy
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2008, 02:21:50 PM »
I've just e-mailed the pics to Jules at the website so they'll hopefully be up soon!

Sorry for being rubbish - not usually so thick but just can't work it out at all!

Lors

Lors

Ricky copy
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2008, 02:22:37 PM »
My myspace is lors.m!

70's Rickenbacker copy by Pearl/Vorg- any ideas on value?!
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2008, 02:26:47 PM »
Aye, know of any guitar companies that do Rickenbacker Bass copies though?

 

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